I am honored to introduce today’s guest, Thomas DeWolf. Tom serves as executive director for Coming to the Table, which is a nonprofit that provides resources for all who wish to acknowledge and heal the wounds of racism.

We will be discussing a range of topics, such as linkages between individual and collective healing, the differences between restorative and retributive justice, and the meaning of reconciliation in the context of healing wounds of racism.

We’re Living Either in Love or in Fear

You can listen to the full conversation by clicking ‘play’ above, or on the following podcast platforms:

• Apple Podcasts
• Spotify
• Google Play
• Stitcher

The following is a taste of my conversation with Tom.

Q: In what substantive ways does healing trauma at a personal level or say within a family differ from healing the kind of collective wound that you’re describing?
Tom: I look at healing personally. I don’t see collective healing without individual healing. If I don’t transform individually, the collective isn’t going to transform.

Q: What are the key differences between the kind of restorative justice you talk about and retributive justice?
Tom: Traditional criminal justice, retributive justice asks three questions: What harm was caused, who did it, and what do they deserve as punishment? In restorative justice there are additional questions that are asked: Who all has been harmed in this harming including the person or persons that we would consider the perpetrators of the damage, who all has a role to play in repairing the harm to the degree that repair is possible, and what role do I have in all of this? Essentially, it recognizes that we are all interconnected, that there are no simple solutions.

Q: How can we forgive, let go of our desire for revenge, and at the same time, hold what we’re calling perpetrators of racial wounding accountable for what they’ve done?
Tom: There’s nothing easy about any of this. We’ve all had relationships that have fallen apart and have been repaired to the degree possible, after deciding the relationship is too important. It is repaired through apology, forgiveness, reparation, and it gets to a new space, not making the relationship the way it was before but new in more accountable and loving ways.

Q: What about reconciliation? What does that really mean in the context of healing wounds of racism?
Tom: I don’t see any time in the history of this country where there was a healthy relationship between the European people who came here and everyone else. So, how do you reconcile? The word that I’ve come to use a lot more is transformation. What we’re really trying to do is transform from something that has been dysfunctional, oppressive, unjust, horrid, into something that we claimed in our founding documents to be all about freedom, and the power of the individual to seek life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

When asked if there’s one last thing he’d like our listeners to hear, Tom says, “I think about interconnectedness more and more these days. And how we are all part of God. And, though I’m not a practicing member of any particular spiritual-religious community at this point, more and more, I believe that, that interconnectedness is where home is. And that, once we recognize that and embrace that, that we will, in fact, be kinder, be more generous, be more loving towards each other, and work in a way that holds each other up and doesn’t fear each other.”

About Tom:
Tom is an author, public speaker, trainer and workshop facilitator, and since 2013, has served as Director/Manager for Coming to the Table. He travels extensively throughout the United States speaking and leading workshops and trainings at colleges, universities, conferences and other venues. He exposes hidden elements of history and shows how traumatic, unhealed wounds from the past continue to impact everyone today. Such wounds are expressed on campuses and elsewhere as racism, sexism, and other forms of intolerance, separation, and hierarchies of human value. With compassion and humor, Tom illuminates a path toward healing and a more hopeful future.

Find Tom on Social Media:
http://tomdewolf.com/ (Website)
https://www.facebook.com/authortomdewolf/ (Facebook)
https://twitter.com/TomDeWolf (Twitter)

Tom’s Books:
Inheriting the Trade: A Northern Family Confronts Its Legacy as the Largest Slave-Trading Dynasty in U.S. History 
Gather at the Table: The Healing Journey of a Daughter of Slavery and a Son of the Slave Trade
The Little Book of Racial Healing: Coming to the Table for Truth-Telling, Liberation & Transformation
Slavery’s Descendants: Shared Legacies of Race and Reconciliation (contributor)

Books Mentioned in the Interview:
Nothing Bad Between Us: A Mennonite Missionary’s Daughter Finds Healing in Her Brokenness, by Marlena Fiol, now available for pre-order on Amazon.
Inheriting the Trade, by Tom DeWolf
The New Jim Crow, by Michelle Alexander
Stamped from the Beginning, by Ibram Kendi
The Healing Power of Storytelling, by Shaw Jackson

About Marlena Fiol:
Marlena Fiol, PhD, is a globally recognized author, scholar and speaker. She is a spiritual seeker whose work explores the depths of who we are and what’s possible in our lives. Her significant body of publications on the topic, coupled with her own raw identity-changing experiences, makes her uniquely qualified to write about personal transformational change. She is also a certified tai chi instructor and freelance writer whose most recent work has appeared in numerous literary magazines and newsletters.

Find Marlena Fiol on Social Media:

Facebook
Twitter
Instagram
LinkedIn

Podcast Transcript:
Below is a complete transcript of the podcast. I used a transcription service to create this, please note that there may be errors. For a 100% accurate quote of what was said, please listen to the podcast itself via the links above.

Interviewer: I’m truly honored to introduce today’s guest, Thomas DeWolf. Tom serves as executive director for Coming To The Table, which is a nonprofit that provides resources for all who wish to acknowledge and heal the wounds of racism. Tom’s first book, “Inheriting the Trade,” a northern family confronts its legacy as the largest slave-trading dynasty in U.S. history, was published in 2008. In 2012, he co-authored with Sharon Leslie Morgan, “Gather at the Table,” the healing journey of a daughter of slavery and a son of the slave trade, which won the Phyllis Wheatley Award for best nonfiction book. Tom’s latest book with Jodie Geddes is “The Little Book of Racial Healing: Coming to the Table for Truth-Telling, Liberation and Transformation.” Wow, that’s a big topic for a little book. It summarizes Coming To The Table’s approach for facilitating racial healing and transformation.
 
So, this podcast season is about forgiveness and reconciliation as paths to healing. Today, we’re going to explore the challenges of healing the living wound of racism which continues to fester as evidenced by the significant disparities between whites and blacks in average household wealth, unemployment, poverty, infant mortality, access to health care, life expectancy, education, housing, the criminal justice system. Sadly, the list goes on and on. Tom, welcome.
 
Tom: Thank you. Thanks for having me on the podcast.
 
Interviewer: I love the metaphor of Coming To The Table, gathering ingredients, and finding new recipes, and tasting them, and getting all dirty and uncomfortable by eating with our hands together. There’s something very raw, and communal, and intimate about it. I believe we’re all hungry to be connected in that way. Tom, can you briefly describe Coming To The Table, and how you got started on this journey?
 
Tom: Yeah, the folks who started it were both European descended and African descended people who were connected by the legacy of slavery either through ancestors owning ancestors or being related by blood. And, when they got together, the inspiration for the name was from Dr. King’s, “I Have a Dream” address in which he said, “I have a dream that the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave masters will join together at the table of brotherhood.” And, this was originally envisioned as, I don’t know, I guess a new take on family reunion and what it means to be family. A much broader view of what family can be, of what family is, and our connection across time, across land and continents. And, looking at a way of seeing history, all of history, the parts we’re proud of and the parts that we’re ashamed of. And then, that became one of the key four pillars of Coming To The Table, sort of, the legs that hold the table up, at acknowledgement of history. And, another is taking action to undo systems of oppression based on race, which are connected to and spill over into all forms of oppression based on gender, religious oppression, political differences, or class, you name it. And then, building connections within and across racial lines, relationships that are accountable, authentic, and that are working together at the table in real, sincere, and profound ways towards transformation. And, the fourth leg or pillar is healing together by any means necessary.
 
And so, this group of folks that were descended from the legacy of slavery brought together about two dozen of us back in 2006 at Eastern Mennonite University in Harrisonburg, Virginia for a weekend of studying trauma, and trauma healing, and restorative justice, and the circle process, and how we’re going to be with each other and dealing with a really difficult and profound topic. It was amazing. And so, from two dozen people, now, there’s literally thousands of people at the table through… We had like 40 local affiliate groups in 16 different states and, you know, I don’t know, between 4,000 and 5,000 people in a very active Facebook group, something like 3,500 people that get our monthly newsletter. It’s just really grown rapidly. And particularly in the last few years as racism has become more uncovered with what’s been happening politically in our nation and the kind of example that set by people in power in our nation.
 
Interviewer: Yeah. So, what have been some of the major breakthroughs at the table that you might describe for us?
 
Tom: You know, I guess the one that comes to mind, first and foremost, is the power of being in relationship. Connecting with people that were trained, either overtly or implicitly to fear or not trust and to learn things about, you know, that what led to my second book “Gather at the Table” with Sharon Morgan was the two of us agreeing to… I mean, racism is huge. All the oppression based in racism is systemic throughout our nation and throughout the world, and a lot of people just throw up their hands, “What can I do?” And, Sharon’s and my approach was to look at racism from the perspective of two people, a descendant of enslavement who is African American and a descendant of enslavers who is European American, and experience a whole bunch of places of horror and of hope throughout this nation and in the Caribbean. And, get each other’s perspectives, just hearing each other’s stories. And, it was just an amazing experience spending so much time with her, and, you know, we’ve become just the closest of friends which we didn’t know would happen or not. But it’s the profoundness of the relationships that I think has certainly helped in my own personal evolution and transformation that I… And, I think that I can safely speak for Sharon that that’s the case with her as well.
 
Interviewer: Yeah. So, just want to let our listeners know that what Tom is describing is the book that he published with Sharon Morgan in 2012, and the information about the book will be on the show notes. Tom, what are some of the key reasons in your experience for people resisting coming to the table? Is it fear?
 
Tom: Well, yeah. I think, ultimately, everything comes down to, you know, that all things become cliché for a reason. So, that old cliché that we’re either living in love or in fear. I think that our life experience is boiled down to those two broad categories. And, I remember when we were… You know, my first book, “Inheriting the Trade” came out of the process of making the movie “Traces of the Trade,” which was at Sundance, and it was on PBS, and it’s still showed to this day at churches and schools around the country. And here, I had learned that I was related to slave traders but I never knew this growing up, and I went on this trip, the beginning of which, you know, it’s like, “Who am I to vilify people who lived hundreds of years ago and did terrible things? You know, I wasn’t alive then, I wasn’t walking in their shoes, who am I to judge?” But, over the course of that particular journey, standing in a slave dungeon on the coast of Ghana and having the feelings of what people must have been experiencing, the horror of the abuse that being ripped away from your family, from your home, being enslaved for the rest of your life, and your children, and your grandchildren. And it’s like, “No, these folks knew what they were doing, it was an evil thing. They knew it was an evil thing and they did it anyway because of the benefits that they received, money, power, prestige, land.” And, I think that growing up without any of that knowledge as I did in Southern California, and I grew up in the ’60s and so I lived near where the Watts riots took place. I mean, I could watch it on TV or walk out the front door and see the smoke rising over Los Angeles. I was about 30 miles to the east of Los Angeles, and I spent a lot of time being afraid as a kid, afraid of anger of people who looked like me, afraid of anger of people who didn’t look like me. And, mostly, I just want to be safe and happy, and I think most people do. And, we want our families to be safe and happy and successful, and anything that rocks our world rocks our boat, our natural tendency is to be afraid of it. You know, that responsive of fight, or flee, or freeze, it’s normal, it’s natural, and it’s healthy, it’s good unless it’s creating fear in us for something that will allow us to become healthier as individuals and as a society.
 
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. Gary Ryan, during the filming of the documentary about the Wounded Knee Massacre, said, “People don’t change when they see the light, they change when they feel the heat.” So, Tom, based on your experience, first of all, do you agree, and if you do, how can we as white privileged people feel the heat of racial injustice?
 
Tom: I would get more of a both end kind of response to that because I think that there are many, many people that won’t change without feeling the heat, and I think there are people who will change when they see the light as well. And, there are people who will change because, all of a sudden, they feel guilty when they recognize their connection to oppression or their connection to what is called white privilege. And, if guilt brings somebody to the table, you know, that’s what brings them to the table. I hope they don’t continue to act only out of guilt because I don’t think that’s a particularly healthy way to transform one’s life, but it can certainly be [crosstalk 00:13:51]…
 
Interviewer: A motivator?
 
Tom: Yeah. And so, whatever motivates someone to explore their connection to oppression, explore their connection to systems that, you know, acknowledge a hierarchy of human value. There are some people more valuable than others, men over women, older people over younger people, rich people over poor people, you know, European descended people over people of color. And, that’s where once, I think, we can, however, we can see our connection to those systems, we can begin working on those systems as well as on our individual healing, our individual wellbeing as it comes to our place in the collective whole.
 
Interviewer: Yeah. I have to tell you, and I’m sure my listeners agree that I’m awed by the magnitude of what you’re taking on in Coming To The Table, the challenge of forgiveness and healing you’re addressing. As you know, this podcast explores the need for healing at very different levels including my own personal journey toward forgiveness, which I described in my new book “Love is Complicated: A True Story of Brokenness and Healing.” My question to you is this, in what substantive ways does healing trauma at a personal level or say within a family differ from healing the kind of collective wound that you’re describing?
 
Tom: Oh, boy, that’s a big question. I look at healing personally… You know, I guess I don’t see collective healing without individual healing, that the reason society operates as it does is because collectively, we collaborate with how that works. You know, kind of a simplistic way is, we all pay a bunch of taxes and a road department takes care of the roads in our town, or the fire department, what have you. So, we’ve got this collective agreement that some people like more than others that we’re going to pay these taxes to have these collective goods. Well, we have, for centuries, collectively decided that people who look like me, European descended people with lighter skin, are better, frankly, are higher on the pecking order. And, the consequence of that is, what benefits me tends to damage other people. And, one of the things I so appreciate about coming to the table is, yes, it’s groups of people gathering together. You know, most of the local groups that are connected to come to the table meet once a month for dialogue, for book discussions, for potluck meals, movies and discussions. But really, overall, it’s a real deep dive into how racism impacts all of us, how it impacts people of color, how it impacts people of European descent, and with the goal of helping us to transform. So, if I don’t transform individually, the collective isn’t going to transform.
 
We changed the laws in the 1960s for voting rights, for civil rights, everything changed. Just like at the end of the Civil War, we, you know, ended slavery. The challenge with it is that the Civil War may have ended the institution of slavery but without the transformation of the individual hearts and minds of enough of the citizens of this nation, it just got transformed. It got transformed into Jim Crow laws, it got transformed into convict leasing so that the prison system becomes another form of slavery, the whole justice system takes that on, policing takes that on, gun rights activists, you know, we’ve got to protect against these formerly enslaved and owned people, so that takes a part of what’s going on. And, weapons, guns discussions as well as how it plays out, and segregated education, and segregated housing, and job opportunities. So, the outcomes are virtually the same, the hierarchy of human value keeps people of European descent on top and people of color down. And then, in the ’60s, Civil Rights, we’re going to get rid of Jim Crow. But then, we have the war on drugs, which is really a war on black and brown bodies. And so, the way the system operates shifts, but the hearts and minds of enough individuals have not changed, so the structure remains European people on top African people other people of color on bottom. And that’s why, to me, it is so important that we recognize the essential nature of healing the woundedness, the fear, the trauma of people of European descent until we have enough people who recognize these truths so that as laws change, so does society. And if laws don’t change, society still changes because we become more… We equal, more just, more kind, more welcoming of the kinds of diverse people that populate our world.
 
Interviewer: Yeah. That’s right. That’s a powerful vision. You speak a lot about restorative justice, and I’d like us to take a look at the difference between retributive justice and restorative justice. I think in this country, often, what we call closure in our criminal justice system is really just seeking retribution which may have little to do with healing. Can you speak about the key differences between the kind of restorative justice you talk about and retributive justice?
 
Tom: Sure. I mean, traditional criminal justice, retributive justice, just speaking of the United States, basically asks three questions, what harm was caused, who did it, and what do they deserve as punishment? And, in restorative justice or as some people call, transformative justice, other terms, there’s a bunch of additional questions that are asked, who all has been harmed in this harming including the person or persons that we would consider the perpetrators of the damage, who all has a role to play in repairing the harm to the degree that repair is possible, and what role do I have in all of this? Essentially, it recognizes that we are all interconnected, that there are no simple solutions, we think that locking someone up for an extended period of time makes the problem go away. And, all it does… You know, I remember standing in the dungeon in Cape Coast, Ghana, and Professor Kofi Anyidoho was describing the legacy of slavery, and he said, “Slavery is a living wound under a patchwork of scars. And, until we remove these scars and clean the wound properly, we will never heal.” And, that’s how I look, and I think the way Coming To The Table approach looks at justice is, we lock someone away, what they’re going to do is fester within a system and a structure that is not here to restore, or to heal, or to love people, it’s to lock them away because we’re mad at them. And, I’m not saying we shouldn’t lock some people up. I’m not saying that holding someone accountable for damage that they have caused should not be painful, should not disrupt their lives when necessary, because there are certainly circumstances that call for that.
 
And, at the same time, if we think that just locking people up, and look how many mentally ill people we lock up, look how many people who’re suffering under drug addiction that we lock up, mostly because we want them out of our way, because we just don’t want them around us, or our kids, or whatever. And, what they become is that festering wound under a patchwork of scars. And, when they come out, do we think it’s going to be better?
 
Interviewer: No.
 
Tom: We have not shown that to be the case, we’ve shown the opposite to be the case. So, if in fact what we’re interested in is being a healthy society requires us to look at our justice system the way that we look at our personal health. We want to know how to be the healthiest people that we can be so we do research. We do it online, we do it with doctors, we do it with psychologists, we do it with ministers and priests, we do it with loved ones, we do it with friends, we do it with books, finding ways to be the healthiest people that we can be. Why don’t we treat our justice system the same way? If we want to transform, restore, however we want to call it, into a healthy society, it’s going to require us to completely transform the criminal justice system as it exists in the United States.
 
Interviewer: Yeah. And, it seems to me, it’s basic human dignity that we’re talking about restoring when we say restorative justice.
 
Tom: Well, yeah. I think, when we talk about restoring, what we’re trying to restore is our best selves, our best humanity, the best that, you know, people who are involved in faith communities, it’s restoring a relationship that God has envisioned. And, for those who don’t it’s still, how can we be our best selves, individually and collectively? I mean, anybody who’s read Michelle Alexander’s work, “The New Jim Crow,” read Ta-Nehisi Coates. There’s read… I don’t have him in front of me, I apologize. So much wonderful scholarship now that can help us understand the wounds and how to heal those wounds. My grandmother’s hands is one of the most amazing books on trauma and the impact that racialized trauma has on white people, black people, and police officers, and what we can do about it.
 
Interviewer: There’s “My Grandmother’s Hands.”
 
Tom: “My Grandmother’s Hands.” Yeah. And, just a beautiful, beautiful book. And, it’s… “Stamped From the Beginning” was the book that I was not remembering just a moment ago, which is, you know, looks at how our nation has been stamped from the beginning, how racism, that’s what we’re founded on. And so, being founded in a wounded state, being created in a wounded state, it requires healing if we’re going to restore ourselves to what we imagine our birthright of truth, justice, fairness, honor requires.
 
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. So, I can imagine that some of our listeners are thinking, “Tom, how really can we forgive, let go of our desire for revenge, and at the same time, hold what we’re calling perpetrators of racial wounding accountable for what they’ve done?” How do you put this together?
 
Tom: The thing I so appreciate about what you just described is, it goes right to the core of the point that this stuff is complex, there’s nothing easy about any of this. I would imagine, all of your listeners have relationships that have fallen apart and have been repaired to the degree possible that people have had a real hard time, and then they’ve decided the relationship is too important and we’re going to fix this through apology, forgiveness, repair, reparation, and get to a space, a new space, not making the relationship the way it was before but new in more accountable and loving ways. And then, we all have those relationships including with some members of our own families, perhaps, where the brokenness may not ever get fixed, it may not get fixed until the next lifetime. And, sometimes appropriately so, sometimes the damage is so severe that the boundaries are essential for our wellbeing. And, I guess when I look at forgiveness, and apology, and repair/reparation, it’s the most important work and the hardest work that we can do. And, I certainly have relationships that don’t exist now because of damage that has happened in the past, and I have relationships that are wonderful loving relationships that have gone through real rough. Everybody who’s been married knows what I’m talking about.
 
Interviewer: Yeah. That’s the truth.
 
Tom: And, everyone who’s had children or who has had parents, or I guess that’s pretty much all of us. We have these relationships that are complicated, and that’s the most important thing that I have learned, is acknowledging the complex nature of every individual and every relationship with every individual in our lives. And, whether that’s the legacy of slavery or is the legacy of patriarchy, or the legacy of religious intolerance, all of these isms, these systems of oppression grow in that same rich soil of fear. And, it’s this fear that I’m going to lose something if somebody else gets thing rather than understanding that abundance is infinite, love is infinite, kindness is infinite, justice is infinite when we choose to understand our ultimate interconnectedness now and always throughout time.
 
Interviewer: Well said. We’ve talked about forgiveness, what about reconciliation? What does that really mean in the context of healing wounds of racism?
 
Tom: What, you know, it’s a word that is used a lot. I’ve used it a lot, and I don’t so much anymore. To reconcile, I’ll go back to the example of, I am married, happily married for more than 30 years, and there have been times when Lindy and I have had some pretty serious challenges. One point at which, I think, both of us wondered if we were going to stay married many years ago. And, we worked through it, we reconciled. We began our relationship like most loving relationships begin, exciting, you know, wonderful, sexy, happy, funny, and just full of passion, and then somebody leaves a cupboard door open that somebody else wishes they would have closed and things happen. And…
 
Interviewer: You could be speaking about my marriage.
 
Tom: Well, I probably am speaking about every marriage. And, those that I’m lucky enough that Lindy and I have remained committed to making our marriage work. And, I’m as in love now as I have ever been with her. And, that’s reconciling things that we mess up with each other along the way in a relationship where you can actually look at, “This is how we felt at one point, let’s reconcile, let’s redo, let’s reorder and get to this space of love.” And, it’s never the same as it was 30 years ago, but it’s a new normal that is connected to that. When I look at racism in the United States, when I look at when European people arrived in this country and literally annihilated 95% of the indigenous people who were here before, who enslaved millions of people stolen from the continent of Africa and brought here, when Europeans marched to the South West and stole land from what was formerly Mexico and wiped out all sorts of Hispanic people in the process, who so horribly abused people of Asian descent in this country, who locked up Japanese descended people during World War II in essentially, camps, concentration camps in this country, and who now are separating families of immigrant people who are trying to get away from horror in their own lives into the land of hope and dreams that we tout this country to be, and we’ve got children being separated from their moms and dads for months and longer at a time. And, I don’t see any time in the history of this country where there was a healthy relationship between the European people who came here and everyone else. So, how do you reconcile? The word that I’ve come to use a lot more is transformation. What we’re really trying to do is transform from something that has been dysfunctional, oppressive, unjust, horrid, into something that we claimed in our founding documents to be all about freedom, and, you know, just the power of the individual to seek life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Well, we’ve never lived up to those ideals. So, what we’re talking about is not reconciling something that existed in 1776, or in 1625, or in 1492, it’s transforming ourselves into this thing that we’ve been bragging about for a long time but have never looked up to.
 
Interviewer: Yeah. Yeah. And, it’s a brand new endeavor which makes it all the more challenging, and perhaps also, all the more exciting about what the possibilities might be.
 
Tom: Yeah, yeah.
 
Interviewer: So, another piece of the forgiveness puzzle is atonement or reparation. Phil Cousineau who is another guest on this podcast says that it’s a really much-overlooked side of the forgiveness coin, this atonement thing. It proves the depth of our desire to forgive. And, you also talk about reparations and how important it is to make reparations for the wrongs, and you say, quote, in your “Little Book of Racial Healing,” “Whether or not white people feel personal responsibility for the legacy of slavery is irrelevant.” They have, I think, what you’re saying, the responsibility regardless, whether they feel it or not. My question is, don’t we need to feel personally responsible, as you said earlier with open hearts and minds, if we’re going to join this table, and maybe even more important, if we’re going to willingly engage in reparations?
 
Tom: There are a lot of really wonderful good-hearted people who look like me that don’t see their connection to any of this. They don’t see their that relation to the need for accountability when it comes to repairing this damage. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had people come up and say, “I’m sure glad I’m not you. You know, you’re directly related to the largest slave-trading dynasty in U.S. history. I’m so glad I’m not you.” You know, and I say, “Well, do you suppose that your ancestors smoked tobacco or wore cotton, ate rice, drank coffee, or tea ,or used sugar?” The entire world’s economy, you know, just a very short few hundred years ago was based entirely on a system of slavery. And, people who consider themselves white benefited from that, and people of color suffered as a result of that.
 
So, I mean, the first thing is, nobody is not connected to this, nobody. We’re all part of it. That’s part of the interconnectedness is, we are all part of it. And, the idea that some people are more responsible than other people because of a more direct tie, maybe their families like mine were ship owners and brought people to this continent from Africa, or maybe they were big plantation owners in the south or whatever, they’re more responsible. Too often, that’s my way of saying, “I’m not getting involved in this and I’m going to blame somebody else.” And, if there’s one thing I think we do a really poor job at in this country, it’s dealing with issues of shame, and blame, and guilt. We love heaping it on other people and using it as a weapon rather than using them as opening of doors to explore what it is that I’m feeling guilty, or ashamed, or blamed over. And then, I use those things to build my walls, to protect myself from any further woundedness. It’s a fallacy, it’s silly, it doesn’t work, but we do that, it’s a natural response. And so, then, you make me feel guilty, I push you away, you accuse me of doing something bad, I can’t wait to find out something you did that’s even worse than what I did so that I can blame you right back. You know, and it’s like watching what happened at the end of the State of the Union address. At the beginning, the President won’t shake the Speaker of the House’s hand, at the end, the Speaker of the House is tearing up the paper, the speech of the President. And it’s like, so now both sides have, like, “Oh, I’m so glad he wouldn’t shake her hand.” “Oh, I’m so glad she tore up that speech.” And, where are we? We’re on opposite sides of a huge gulf. How do we bridge that gulf? That’s the work that Coming To The Table is interested in. Doesn’t always succeed, isn’t easy, it’s so complex. But, if we’re going to repair anything, and that’s what reparations is, it’s repair. The only way to do that is to understand the wound, understand what’s needed, and take the appropriate reparative action for that to happen. So, I break my leg, I don’t want to bend it on my arm. I want to actually deal with the breaking my leg. And, the same thing is at play here on a much larger, and a much more structural, and systemic basis in the United States. So, you know, Coming To The Table has a very active reparations working group that has developed, gosh, I think it’s about a 24-page long reparations guide. Things that individuals and collectives can do to consider doing to help repair the damage from the legacy of slavery. And, you know, it’s easily downloadable on the Coming To The Table website.
 
So, I guess, the main point that I would make is that, there’s no simple answers to any of this. You know, when a couple gets in real dire straits in a relationship, there’s no easy way to fix it. You know, a kiss, and a dinner, and some flowers may provide the band-aid on the arm but it’s not going to heal the broken leg. And, it’s the hard work of repair, of reparation, that it’s going to be painful, and it’s going to involve accountability, and it’s going to involve apology, it’s going to involve baring our souls with each other, trusting each other enough that we want to get where we want to get together.
 
Interviewer: Yeah. Tom, you’ve said that sharing our stories with each other is one of the most effective way to bridge that gulf that you’re talking about, to develop meaningful relationships. What is it about storytelling that makes it such a powerful way to get to connectedness?
 
Tom: You know, I thought a lot about this over the years, and there’s a book. I’m not remembering the author but the name of the book is “The Healing Power of Storytelling.” And, one of the aspects of story that has become so crystal clear to me as I’ve been yakking away today, everything I’ve said is wrapped up in story. I talk about my wife and I, and I’m actually envisioning moments in our relationship on our couch, or walking along the river, in town, or down the street, the conversations that we’ve had. The way that she and I fell in love with each other is by the stories that we shared. That’s how we get to know each other, is sharing our stories. That’s how we break up with each other, is because my story is incompatible with your story. And, I just don’t think that there is anything that can be done to heal or harm any relationship other than the sharing of stories. And, we do it with our movies, with our books, with our music, with paintings, with sculpture, and certainly with our relationships. It’s who we are, it’s really everything at the core of we as individuals becoming connected to others, it’s the story.
 
Interviewer: And, maybe because stories help us connect through the heart, not just through our heads. And, similar to storytelling, another guest on this podcast, Doug Bradley, has written a number of books about how music can create shared and healings story. In his case, it’s about the fracture around the Vietnam War that is also a living wound, the way he describes it. What might be the role of music at the table of racial healing?
 
Tom: Absolutely. I look at, you know, when we prepare gatherings within Coming To The Table, they often include music. We have national gatherings every two years where, oh, a couple hundred people get together for four days, and it always includes music. Go watch the movie “Harriet” right now. It’s, you know, available on DVD, or download, or whatever. The power, the role of music in the underground railroad. The words, and the music, and what the story of that music meant, it had a certain language that was, you know, individual to the people who were enslaved and their enslavers were oblivious. And, I think in my own life about the healing power of music that I’ve experienced for me throughout my whole life, I think of Bruce Springsteen, and what his music has meant to me and many other people, many other people that have music that has been profound. But, just as an example, you know, I was lucky enough to go see Bruce Springsteen on Broadway, and that show that he did, the whole thing was music as story. And, the whole thing was him telling his life story, both in word and in music, in such a way that I, Tom, can connect to it with my story, the music of my life. And so, when he’s singing, “Growing Up,” I have my own visions of my own growing up. I didn’t grow up in Jersey, it was a whole different experience from what he did, but, his story, his music helps me to make sense of my own. And, I think that’s what all art is about, it’s taking what’s natural, and making it into something artificial so that we can make sense of who we are as individuals, and as a society, as a community, as a collective.
 
Interviewer: Tom, I love how you have taken this topic, this huge collective issue and you bring it consistently back to the individual level. And, I’m going to get to, perhaps, the most personal level, and ask about something that you write about, which is the need in looking at healing racial tensions, the need for self-forgiveness. Can you speak to that?
 
Tom: Well, it’s certainly one of the hardest things that any of us can do. When we think of forgiveness, it’s usually wanting to forgive other people for the damage they’ve caused in our lives, and yet, so much of what we carry around, so many of our wounds are because of the harm that we’ve caused other people, people we love, people we work with, people we encounter in other ways. And then, we think, “I’m just not good enough. I’m not the person I claim to be outside, and I’m going to keep this part hidden. I’m keeping this to myself.” But, really, what we spend so much time beating ourselves up for not living up to our own version of who I really believe I am, just as the United States doesn’t live up to the vision that was established by those folks we call the founders so long ago. And so, the biggest question any of us can ask ourselves, I think is, “Do I love myself? Do I forgive myself?” And, that’s the hard work. I struggle with that, honestly, all the time. You know, the damage that I’ve caused in my life, the damage that has been caused to me. It’s just a whole lot easier for me to blame other people and not take responsibility for my own stuff and forgive myself and love myself in the way that I want other people to forgive and love me.
 
Interviewer: Yeah, it doesn’t get more real than that. So, if there were one last thing that you’d like our listeners to know or to hear today from you, what would it be?
 
Tom: Well, I’m glad that you told me that you were going to ask me this. So, like, just a little bit as we began, and it’s, you know, so much of what I talk about in terms of love and forgiveness. You know, I talk in broad themes, and there are people who would say, “Yeah, that’s just a bunch of woo-woo stuff.” Or, “That’s cliché,” or what have you. And, I would invite people to recognize that the woo-woo stuff, the cliché stuff, the old wives tales stuff is all there for a reason, because it matters and it gets repeated over and over. And, I’m sure almost everybody who signs up for these email things that come from whatever makes them feel good, and I get one called “Notes From The Universe.” And, this is what I would leave with people because this is what I try to think about and live up to all the time. And, this note says, “Sometimes it’s easy to forget, Tom, that everyone’s just on their way home, that you’re all truly the best friends, and that this whole crazy thing kind of started as a dare to see who might love the deepest no matter how lost the others became.” And, I think about interconnectedness more and more these days. And how, if that all the great religions share this, that we are all of God, that we are all part of God. And, though I’m not a practicing member of any particular spiritual-religious community at this point, more and more, I believe that, that interconnectedness is where home is. And that, once we recognize that and embrace that, that we will, in fact, be kinder, be more generous, be more loving towards each other, and work in a way that holds each other up and doesn’t fear each other. And, more than that, you know, I just can’t imagine anything other than recognizing that ultimately, we’re truly the best of friends. You want to reconcile? Let’s reconcile back to the beginning of time and infinity when that was the case and head for that again, and see who might love the deepest.
 
Interviewer: And, that might be the reconciliation we’re talking about in racial healing.
 
Tom: Yes, indeed.
 
Interviewer: Yeah. This has been a very meaningful conversation, and unfortunately, we’re out of time. Tom, thank you for taking the time to speak with us.
 
Tom: Well, you’re so welcome, and I’m just deeply grateful that you’ve invited me to be here with you and all your listeners today. Thanks.
 
Interviewer: I’ve been speaking with Thomas DeWolf, whose latest book is The Little Book of Racial Healing. Details about how to purchase all of his books, as well as other books that Tom mentioned during this interview, will be found on the show notes. And, thank you, our listeners, for joining us today. If you know people who would be interested in this podcast, please share it with them. And, if you liked it, please take a moment to rate and review us in iTunes or your favorite podcasting network. I’ll put instructions in the show notes in case you’re not familiar with this.
 
And, remember, we are together on this journey.