I am really excited today to bring you the thinking of New York Times best-selling author Dr. Stephen Post, on issues that have driven his career. Stephen and I will be discussing a range of topics, such as whether we need to suffer to really heal, whether we plan our life or destiny controls it, and the difference between human and divine love.
His long career as a researcher, public speaker and professor has given him deep insights into these topics that you will want to hear and consider. I am particularly impressed with how consistently Stephen eschews easy answers to inherently complex questions.
You can listen to the full conversation by clicking ‘play’ below, or on the following podcast platforms:
Do We Plan Our Life or Does Destiny Control Us?
The following is just a taste of Stephen’s remarkable insights.
Q: Do we plan our life, or is it controlled by destiny?
Stephen: We are co-creators of our destiny if we live with openness and responsiveness to surprises.
Q: Must all of us suffer and become broken in order to truly heal?
Stephen: Some people who lack empathy and love are lucky to come to some kind of brokenness so their light can begin to shine through; others are naturally empathetic and do not need that.
Q: What’s the difference between human and divine love?
Stephen: Human love, no matter how deep, is limited and can turn into anger or hatred; sometimes, if we’re open, we’re invaded by a spirit of (divine) love that is shockingly beyond our usual repertoire.
Q: What’s the difference between the right and the wrong kind of oneness?
Stephen: We all desire oneness, but we often seek to achieve it by eliminating those who are different; the right kind of oneness includes everyone as having equal eternal value.
When asked if there’s one last thing he’d like our listeners to hear, Stephen quotes Eleanor Roosevelt as saying, “The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams.”
Dr. Stephen Post’s latest book, God and Love on Route 80: The Hidden Mystery of Human Connectedness, is a true story of the author’s recurring dream as a teenager, and how he literally followed the dream west on Route 80 until he got to a ledge on the Golden Gate Bridge – actually, he’s been following the dream for the rest of his life. It’s a classic story about the hero being called on a spiritual journey.
About Dr. Stephen G. Post
For over twenty years, Stephen has been spreading the science of giving and the commitment to the greater good. He has promoted the idea of “give and live better” across the globe. Funding over 50 scientific studies at the nation’s top universities as well as conducting his own research, Stephen is considered the “go to” guy with his uplifting message that when we contribute to the lives of others, give meaningfully, and live by the Golden Rule, we are generally happier, healthier, more resilient, creative, hopeful and successful.
Find Stephen:
Stephen’s website: https://stephengpost.com
The Institute for Research on Unlimited Love
Stephen’s Books:
God and Love on Route 80: The Hidden Mystery of Human Connectedness
Why Good Things Happen to Good People: How to Live a Longer, Healthier, Happier Life by the Simple Act of Giving
Books Mentioned in the Interview:
Falling Upward: A Spirituality for the Two Halves of Life, by Richard Rohr
Love Is Complicated: A True Story of Brokenness and Healing, by Marlena Fiol, available now for pre-order on Amazon.
About Marlena Fiol, PhD
Marlena Fiol, PhD, is a globally recognized author, scholar and speaker. She is a spiritual seeker whose work explores the depths of who we are and what’s possible in our lives. Her significant body of publications on the topic, coupled with her own raw identity-changing experiences, makes her uniquely qualified to write about personal transformational change. She is also a certified tai chi instructor and freelance writer whose most recent work has appeared in numerous literary magazines and newsletters.
You can find Marlena in the following places:
https://marlenafiol.com
Facebook
Twitter
Podcast Transcript
Below is a complete transcript of the podcast. I used a transcription service to create this, please note that there may be errors. For a 100% accurate quote of what was said, please listen to the podcast itself via the links above.
I’m very pleased to introduce today’s guest, Dr. Stephen Post.
Stephen is a researcher, public speaker, professor, and best-selling author of Why Good Things Happen to Good People: How to Live a Longer, Healthier, Happier Life by the Simple Act of Giving, which was published in 2007.
His latest book, God and Love on Route 80: The Hidden Mystery of Human Connectedness, is a true story of the author’s recurring dream as a teenager, and how he literally followed the dream west on Route 80 until he got to a ledge on the Golden Gate Bridge – actually, he’s been following the dream for the rest of his life. It’s a classic story about the hero being called on a spiritual journey.
The theme running through all of our episodes for this podcast season is that going through adversity sometimes leads us to more fully understanding who we truly are and what’s possible for us. Stephen’s incredible journey to the ledge and beyond certainly fits this theme.
Welcome, Stephen, to our podcast Becoming Who You Truly Are.
DREAM
Let’s begin by telling our listeners about your recurring dream when you were 15, which really defined the rest of your life. Can you describe the dream – not the journey it called forth – but just the dream itself.
S: There was a thick silver mist and I was looking out on a road leading to the west. I squinted, and on my left, I saw the outline of a young man leaning out over a ledge ready to jump. The mist dissipated and I saw the face of a blue angel and a soft woman’s voice said, “If you save him, you too shall live.” And then she disappeared.
I believed maybe something was calling me.
M: So that dream propelled you on your eventual journey west on Route 80.
GOALS
Let’s talk more generally about the forces that propel us forward in life. You state, “We are all more taken on a journey than in control – the divine mind whispers and winks – we just need to listen to the whispers.”
You also state elsewhere in your book, “Goals are desperate detours from destiny.”
That sounds almost like pre-determinism – that God, fate, or some other force already knows our destiny – we just need to follow what’s already laid out for our lives.
S: I don’t plot out my life, and I’m open to responding with creativity to surprises. My life is a responding life, rather than controlling.
I am the co-creator of my destiny.
Must learn how to be a notice and observe.
FIRST HALF OF LIFE
Along the same lines, you state, “many youngsters pursue materialistic goals that disappoint in the long run – it’s better to give all that up early and follow a pilgrim’s path.”
My spiritual teacher Franciscan Father Richard Rohr says in his book Falling Upward: A Spirituality for the Two Halves of Life, “You ironically have to have a very strong ego structure to let go of your ego.”
Basically, I believe Rohr is arguing that we need the first half of life process of building up our ego – pursuing our materialistic goals – in order to understand, somewhere during the second half of life, that all of that doesn’t fill our longing, which then allows us to let go, and fall upward into connectedness with all.
I’d love to hear your thoughts about this.
S: Wouldn’t it be better to experience this earlier in life?
It all depends on the soul with which you’ve come into this world. Some children are capable of such spiritual experiences.
SUFFERING
You write “Running on empty is a great way to get to something deeper” – I know you were referring to your dad’s car breaking down on Rt. 80 – but those words could have been a great tag line for this podcast, because it’s exactly what our central theme is all about.
In fact, most of the people I’m interviewing have experienced horrific suffering – physical, spiritual, and emotional – and are here to talk about how through it they’ve discovered a deeper sense of who they are and who they can become. My own journey, which I describe in my forthcoming book, also took me through a very dark place before healing became possible from within the most broken parts of myself.
So here’s the question: Do you believe that some of us with overblown egos must suffer – fall to our knees, broken – before we can let go enough to find our true selves within the universal One?
My own story is like that. In my new book, which will be released next summer, I describe the difficult relationship I had with my father and the Mennonite church and the eventual reconciliation that emerged from our brokenness.
My husband and I often wish we could find healing and growth without the pain. Don’t we all? We all seem to love the status quo and prefer just about anything to failing or losing, even if the status quo isn’t working so well for us. But like the late great Leonard Cohen wrote, cracks are how the light gets in.
(But “The human ego prefers anything, just about anything, to falling, or changing, or dying.”)
S: I teach a course called “The Wounded Healer.” Physicians who’ve suffered themselves can be more empathic. Those who are not, if they’re lucky, they’ll come to some kind of brokenness – crisis – so that their light can shine through.
But some people are naturally empathic and creative and don’t need it – some people need brokenness more than others.
UNCAUSED CAUSALITY
You quote Jung as describing synchronicity as uncaused causality – causality that has nothing to do with the material sequences of action and reaction.
Stephen, you’re probably the truest believer in synchronicity I’ve ever spoken with– and yet you’ve spent your entire adult life around medical professionals whose training – almost more than anyone else – is based on scientific principles of causality.
Isn’t that an unusual partnership?
S: It’s a myth that to be a true scientist, you must be a materialist. I conducted a national survey of 1200 adult Americans. The question was had they experienced infinite mind/love? 80% said yes.
The mind is not just brain tissue cells. It is a gift that goes beyond the material.
PRAYER
Let’s talk about prayer. You write that you’re not afraid to pray for even very big things because and I quote, “this allows the infinite mind to express itself more completely.”
Some would say that naming anything – even very big things – in prayer is limiting, because we’re not aware of what’s possible. Maybe more of a Thy Will be Done prayer is less limiting than asking for anything in particular, even very big things.
What are your thoughts about that?
S: I’ve kept a journal since I was 22. I carefully write down all the things that are significant – important for my journey/mission.
I collaborate by seeking what I believe is consistent with my mission. But I may have a vision that doesn’t manifest. I’m open to that.
An example was the prayer to manifest the “Institute for Research on Unlimited Love.”
GOOD AND EVIL
This may seem a bit weighty as a subject, but I’m wondering about your take on good and evil in the world.
You write that you are pessimistic about human nature – that it’s much more disposed to arrogance than humility, hostility rather than kindness, violence rather than peace.
At the same time, you state that there’s a power for good in the universe.
How do you reconcile your view of violent humanity with the power for good in the universe?
S: Human nature is a mixed bag. The trouble with human love, even if it’s very deep, it may turn to hate or be in other ways myopic.
But sometimes we’re invaded by a spirit that is not human. We’re opening ourselves up to be invaded by the divine – which is shockingly beyond our usual human repertoire.
RELATED TO GOOD AND EVIL – ONENESS
Related to the topic of good and evil – and as you say, the power for good lies in our inherent oneness with all beings.
We all have a desire for that oneness – but depressingly sometimes we try to achieve that oneness by eliminating those “outsiders,” those people we don’t agree with us.
It seems to me that this sort of pursuit of false and ugly oneness is potentially a real trap for us.
Do you agree?
S: From the beginning, we all seek oneness. But often, our instinct is to seek oneness by elimination of those unlike us. This explains a lot of the injustices, describes the isms – racism, sexism – kill off those who don’t believe as we do.
All religions are part of the same GPS, all trying to get us to the same infinite mind, but by taking different routes.
The issue is this: Is it the wrong or the right kind of oneness? Those, like Gandhi, who’ve fought for the right kind have suffered because they threaten those stuck in the wrong kind.
Our politics today are so divisive. We need to step back and know that everyone has an eternal value.
ALZHEIMERS
Stephen, I love how you write about deeply forgetful people. It reminds me of the way my father, a physician who treated leprosy patients in Paraguay, used to say, “They are not lepers. We don’t ever call them lepers. They are people with equal dignity as you and I who are suffering from a disease called leprosy.”
In your opinion, are we as a society getting better at treating those with dementia as people with equal dignity as you and I?
S: We’ve made some progress, but we still have a lot of derisive humor that mocks people who are deeply forgetful. We’re all on the continuum of forgetfulness – it’s not a question of us versus them.
We need to recognize that the person is still in there. Not empty. It’s a person with a communication barrier, neurological deterioration.
There’s been a lot of research on terminal lucidity, which is quite common at the end of life. The person is there and lucid at the end. We never lose our eternal soul.
Memory is much more complicated than anyone understands.
We must always assume that underneath the forgetfulness there’s a fully human being worthy of respect.
His Holiness the Dalai Lama said, “There’s no reason to think that the consciousness of someone who’s deeply forgetful is any less noble than the consciousness of someone whose memory is intact.”
The music and memory initiative is amazing – can play music people identify with and it wakes them up. Our scientific medical models have failed – no new pharma on the horizon – but what we can do with creativity and music and the arts and poetry and all the things that love allows – that’s important.
BRIDGE
OK, so I know our listeners would love to hear about the ledge on the Golden Gate Bridge and how it links back to your dream.
S: After telling the story…the dream had come true. It was a special learning experience that the mind has cosmic dimensions.
LAST THING
Stephen, if there were one last thing you’d like our listeners to hear, what would it be?
S: Follow your dream. Eleanor Roosevelt said: “The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams.”
I’ve been speaking with Dr. Stephen Post. His latest book is God and Love on Route 80: The Hidden Mystery of Human Connectedness. Details about how to purchase the book can be found on the show notes.
Like Marlena, my life has pasted through stages connected by unexpected transitions that I never could have predicted. As I have aged life has become richer and more satisfying. I wonder about how I could be so fortunate to have gotten from there to here. Maybe as Dr. Stephen Post said in Marlena’s podcast this week “My life is a responding life, rather than controlling.” Maybe I simply have occasionally “listen to the whispers” and responded.