Nita described herself as a 49-year-old overweight woman suffering from crippling depression and bipolar disorder, when she caught the running bug. Her first run lasted 60 seconds, but she kept running just a bit longer each time. Since then, Nita has completed three full marathons, 28 half marathons and almost 100 shorter races—and through it has discovered an inner strength she didn’t know she had.
With refreshing honesty, Nita shares her journey from debilitating fear to self-mastery. We will discuss the parallels between running and meditation, the importance of doing that which is scary, and the necessity of not only having a vision, but trusting and believing in it.
You can listen to the full conversation by clicking ‘play’ below, or on the following podcast platforms:
Continue Under All Circumstances. Don’t Be Tossed Away
The following provides a taste of Nita’s thoughts about running, writing and life:
Q: Did finally running a full marathon change your life?
Nita: The peak experience of running the marathon was not what was life-altering – what changes your life is the day-to-day stuff leading up to those events – showing up over and over.
Q: What are the parallels between your writing process and managing chronic depression?
Nita: The foundation of my writing process is just starting again and again and again. And as someone with chronic depression, that’s essential, because if it were up to me, I would just stay in bed, quite frankly.
Q: What’s your advice to writers wishing to publish their work and receiving rejection, after rejection, after rejection?
Nita: Have somebody you can cry with, be angry with, yell with, throw things with. You know, go for a run and then just go back and send it out again.
Q: By what process did you eventually begin to let in the fact that you are good, you are a runner, you are a writer, you are a winner?
Nita: I still have the doubts that plague many of us. If I don’t run for two or three days, my brain will say, “Well Nita, that was fun. But it’s over now. Like, I’m never going to run again. So I say, “Thank you. I appreciate that you’re trying to protect me. Now I’m going to go put on my running shoes and just go run a couple of miles. So hang tight, and let’s see what happens.”
When asked if there’s one last thing she’d like our listeners to hear, Nita says, “If you want to do something, especially if it’s something that seems so big or maybe terrifying, pick a tiny, tiny goal, a goal so small that you can’t fail and start there.”
Nita Sweeney is the author of Depression Hates a Moving Target: How Running with My Dog Brought Me Back from The Brink, an inspirational story of persistence and courage.
About Nita Sweeney
Nita was forty-nine, chronically depressed and unable to jog for more than 60 seconds when she discovered running. Through the sport, Nita gained an inner strength she didn’t know she possessed, and with the help of her canine companion, found herself on the way to completing her first marathon. In her first memoir, Depression Hates a Moving Target: How Running with My Dog Brought Me Back from the Brink, Sweeney shares how she faced emotional and physical challenges to overcome her fears and come back from the brink. Nita lives in Columbus, the heart of Ohio, where she writes, coaches writers, teaches meditation and publishes Write Now Columbus and the blog, Bum Glue.
Find Nita on Social Media:
https://nitasweeney.com
Twitter: @nitasweeney
Facebook
LinkedIn
Pinterest
Instagram: @nitasweeney
Nita’s Book: Depression Hates a Moving Target: How Running with my Dog Brought me Back from the Brink
Book Mentioned in the Interview:
Love Is Complicated: A True Story of Brokenness and Healing, by Marlena Fiol, now available for pre-order on Amazon.
About Marlena Fiol, PhD
Marlena Fiol, PhD, is a globally recognized author, scholar and speaker. She is a spiritual seeker whose work explores the depths of who we are and what’s possible in our lives. Her significant body of publications on the topic, coupled with her own raw identity-changing experiences, makes her uniquely qualified to write about personal transformational change. She is also a certified tai chi instructor and freelance writer whose most recent work has appeared in numerous literary magazines and newsletters.
You can find Marlena in the following places:
https://marlenafiol.com
Facebook
Twitter: @marlenafiol
Podcast Transcript
Below is a complete transcript of the podcast. I used a transcription service to create this, please note that there may be errors. For a 100% accurate quote of what was said, please listen to the podcast itself via the links above.
Interviewer: Today my guest is Nita Sweeney. Nita, described herself as a 49-year-old, overweight woman suffering from crippling depression of bipolar disorder when she caught the running bug. Her first run lasted 60 seconds, but she kept running just a bit longer each time. Since then, Nita has completed, and she’s going to correct me if I don’t even have all of them listed, but she’s completed 3 full marathons, 27 half marathons, and 80 shorter races. And maybe most important for this podcast season is that through it, she’s discovered an inner strength she didn’t know she had.
She describes all of this in her memoir, “Depression Hates a Moving Target: How Running With My Dog Brought Me Back From the Brink” which was released just this year. The theme running through all of our episodes for this podcast season is that going through adversity sometimes leads us to more fully understand who we are and to more deeply know what’s possible for us. Nita’s journey from debilitating depression, to becoming a marathon runner certainly fits this theme. Welcome, Nita.
Nita: Thank you so much. It’s really a pleasure to be here.
Interviewer: Let’s begin by sharing a bit of your story with our listeners. Why did you begin to run and what has this done for you?
Nita: That first question is always a little difficult to answer. I began running because I saw a social media post of a high school friend. So that’s the easy answer. But the bigger answer is that I was in a really bad place. I had been chronically depressed for many, many years, and I’d suffered the losses of seven loved ones and a cat. I was grieving over that. I was stuck in my writing process. And I was stuck on the sofa, I mean, physically stuck on the sofa. So when I saw this post from someone who was very much like me, someone I’d gone to high school with, it triggered something inside me. I didn’t start running right away, but I got curious.
And in the book, I talk about a seed being planted. And then eventually, as my friend continued to post that seed sprouted and grew. And one day which actually coincided with spring coming, it was in March of 2010, I saw the purple cress begin to bloom here in Central Ohio. They kind of pop out of the ground. Sometimes they’re in the snow, and they’re these little purple flowers that pop up. And then I saw the little buds starting on the seeds. And I tend to be very in tune with nature.
Then I saw my friend’s post again and I thought, all right, I just have to try this. So I picked up a plastic…one of those digital…you know, those little square digital kitchen timers, mine was white, and I leashed up the dog, our yellow Labrador Morgan for moral support. And I went outside into this…and I walked down to this secluded ravine because I was really afraid of people laughing at me.
I was much larger than I am now. I don’t know exactly how much weight I’ve lost but a considerable amount. And I was very paranoid. Depression can sometimes do that. I’m also bipolar and so that factors in. And I went on into this ravine and set the timer for 60 seconds and we started jogging. And I didn’t even call it running. The training program didn’t call it running either. And I’m really glad because I think that…
Interviewer: It would have been intimidating?
Nita: Too much. When I thought of running I mean, I thought of what you see on TV, these tall, thin, or maybe not tall, but very, very thin people doing what seems like sprinting to me. And when I had run when I was younger, that’s really what I did. I really sprinted. I wasn’t running. I was running as hard as I could just to try to lose weight. And this was something completely different. So that’s where it started.
You know, I get a lot of people that say, “Oh, my sister needs to read this book,” or, “Oh, I wish my son would read this book.” And it’s not something you can give to somebody else. And it’s really hard for me to even describe, it was just as if a shift happened or a switch flipped, and I wanted something different. And I didn’t even know if that would be it. I just felt like I had to try something because things weren’t working.
Interviewer: You mentioned in your book, that your husband does tai chi and that you practiced something called ChiRunning. My husband, his name is also Ed, my husband and I are avid tai chi practitioners. So I’m really curious, how is ChiRunning like tai chi, and in what ways did this help you?
Nita: From what I understand the… Well, back up. The man who created ChiRunning, Danny Dreyer, studied tai chi. And the principles especially of chi, the energy, the movement, are similar. I haven’t practiced a lot of tai chi. I practice more meditation. But in tai chi, there’s very purposeful movements, and a lot of it is energetic, not so much physical. So you’re working with the body’s energy and especially the chi in like the abdomen and the core part of the body like below the belly button. And so in ChiRunning, there’s a lot of focus on form, and on making tiny adjustments to improve form so that running is more efficient.
And again, I don’t know enough about tai chi to say that there’s a parallel, but the little bit that I have done, I know that just a subtle shift in a movement in tai chi, makes a huge difference. And that’s the same thing with ChiRunning. So in meditation, there’s kind of a similar thing where you’re not so much working with energy, you’re more absorbing energy. But that whole philosophy of not forcing things, of watching things, and making tiny adjustments really attracted me.
Interviewer: You are really describing tai chi very, very well, it’s amazing. Our master talks about all of that energy coming from the dan t’ian, which is that place just below the belly button, what is it, two finger-widths below the belly button and two finger-widths into your belly where our core resides. And so yeah, it sounds very familiar. That’s great. You talk about the fact that you meditate. My husband, Ed and I experienced tai chi as a moving meditation. But we’ve also been seated meditators for years, actually, for decades and have attended 10-day silent meditation retreats, which you actually talked about that in your book. Was it Vipassana meditation that you practiced?
Nita: Yes, Vipassana or Theravada, depending on the teacher, sometimes they claim the Theravada tradition, and sometimes they just talk about Vipassana kind of without the Buddhist trapping even though it’s a Sanskrit word. And mindfulness is probably the word… Most people know about mindfulness in the more traditional sense, not… There’s kind of a mainstream mindfulness philosophy now that’s more about how you think and being mindful about things as opposed to the meditation practice of mindfulness, which is very specific, and has a very specific definition.
So yes, so my husband and I have attended many 10-day retreats. He actually…long before we met, his very first retreat was a Zen retreat, which is a 10-day silent retreat. And then he eventually discovered Vipassana and that’s around when he met me. And so we started going to Vipassana retreats. And for a while, we were even coordinating them. We brought some teachers here to Columbus, Ohio and had a little group. And I still continue. I just started practicing again. My teacher is the famous Shinzen Young and I just started practicing again, more directly with him and taking more specific training with him again. And that’s been really, really positive. It feels like the right step for me right now.
Interviewer: So my experience with a 10-day silent retreat is that my monkey mind goes crazy. And for the first few days, I’m close to believing I can’t tolerate another day. And then about around the third or fourth day, I just don’t want it to ever end. Was this your experience? And I’m wondering, I’m not a runner. Are there parallels to running? Those are two questions.
Nita: Yes. When you first started talking about the retreats, and that feeling of what monkey mind does, the parallel with running is incredible. There’s a joke in running they say, “The first mile is a liar,” because that first mile, you’re not fully warmed up. You know, expert runners or elite runners, they will warm up extensively before they run, but most of us back of the packers don’t. So that first mile…
Interviewer: Back of the packers.
Nita: Yeah, the people that you know, sometimes finish last. We don’t necessarily warm up other than just some moderate warm-up exercises, but we don’t actually, you know, run like a mile or anything before the race or before a run. And so that first mile, not only is your mind telling you, “This is ridiculous, you’re going to die.” Of course, mine is a little more extreme, maybe than most people’s. But then your body is also saying, “What are you doing to me? You know, why are you trying to kill me?”
And so, yes, the parallel with a 10-day retreat, or really even with my first weekend retreat was identical. I went to a weekend retreat in Cincinnati with my husband and another friend here from Columbus. And on the drive down…I mean, just even driving to the retreat, my mind was going crazy just saying, “How are you gonna tolerate this? You can’t go through this.” And it was so interesting because it’s so out of proportion.
The reality was that I was going to be sitting in silence in a completely safe room that was the proper temperature. I would have the right clothes on. They were going to feed me. No one was chasing me with knives. I mean, it was completely safe. But my mind, that kind of reptilian brain part of me, it was convinced I was somehow gonna die. I mean, it wasn’t just, you’re gonna be uncomfortable, this is going to kill you.
And that also is what happens with me with running. So that’s one of the things that I think helped. I tried to make that clear in the book, but sometimes I wonder if I really did, how having had those years of meditation practice of coming up against the monkey mind that says, “This is not good. We have to flee,” and not leaving, not fleeing. And then like we said, four days in, or for me it was by Saturday night, I couldn’t imagine going home. It was so wonderful.
Interviewer: Exactly.
Nita: So yeah, that’s exactly it. And the parallels are there. And within a longer run, you know, as you train, at first, when I first started running, that would happen within a mile. You know, the first 5 minutes or so I’d get that and then I would get this kind of glow, and then that would pass. And now it’s kind of longer distances I have the same thing happen where that first mile is just kind of gruesome.
Interviewer: What you describe about being with yourself in silence being so frightening, I think that’s a pretty universal experience. I think being with ourselves in silence is scary business.
Nita: I agree. I agree. I think that’s… And we’re so good at distracting ourselves. And I mean, we’re taught to do it from when we’re young. And there’s nothing wrong with a purposeful distraction. You know, I think denial sometimes gets a bad name because if we actually could see everything that was going to happen to us or know everything, we really just wouldn’t get out of bed some days. But I think that we have these filters.
And so we have to learn how to use them carefully and properly. And if we never get out of the distraction, if we never give ourselves the chance to face our own minds, to face the silence, I think that’s a real disadvantage. And I’m really grateful that I’ve had the opportunity to do that. And not everybody gets that. You know, it’s just kind of a wonderful thing that I’ve been in a place surrounded with other people who are a supporter of that too.
Interviewer: Purposeful distraction, I love that. So, you spoke earlier about a switch that flipped. So there was this fear of people laughing at you, fear that you couldn’t do it, and a switch flipped. Oh, by the way, was I close in the number of marathons and half marathons and shorter races that you’ve run?
Nita: You were very close. I have run three full marathons. And now I’ve run 28 half marathons. So I think the bio [inaudible 00:14:26]…you know, you have different bios across the internet that I send out and I need to get them all uniform because I did run the Cleveland half marathon last May and so that’s 28. And now the shorter races are up to almost 100 because I’ve done you know, a 5k here or there and I count all of those as the shorter races.
Interviewer: Good for you. That is so impressive.
Nita: But you’re very close.
Interviewer: Very impressive.
Nita: [crosstalk 00:14:49] I’m a little bit driven. And also I’m in this group of people that do a lot of races, kind of as an incentive to keep training when they’re not doing races. So you end up doing a lot of races.
Interviewer: You state numerous times that, “You have to do what scares you or your anxiety builds.” And it seems running was that scary thing for you. But here’s my question. Could it just as easily have been some other scary and brave endeavor? In other words, was it the running that saved you or throwing yourself into a passion, any passion?
Nita: Yeah, I think it could be any passion. And there was a period of time where it was driving on the freeway. I mean, that’s not exactly a passion, that’s something when you live in Columbus, Ohio, it’s really hard not to do. So it’s more the fact that I did enjoy running so much, it helped me face the fear because it did turn out to be something that really, really benefited me. But it could be any other passion that gives you that. I know a lot of people that find it in swimming, or cycling, or horseback riding, or I mean anything.
I think there’s a component of it in my story about breaking a sweat, having that neurotransmitter boost that comes from getting your heart rate up, and just having exertion. You might not even have to break a sweat, but something that just changes you physiologically, in addition to mentally.
Interviewer: So you found joy in it, but I believe from your book, my sense is, you didn’t initially find joy in it. It was very painful. So what about the early part of that process, facing those fears?
Nita: The beginning when I was down on the ravine with the dog on the first day, that first 50 seconds was…or 60 seconds, I’m sorry, that first 60 seconds was incredibly joyful because I had gotten out of my house. I’d gotten myself dressed. I was with the dog. I got into the ravine. And all of those things at that time in my life were big. And then having actually jogged for 60 seconds and it hurt because I had a really bad running bra. I need a better bra. But the fact that I did it, and it didn’t…I mean, sometimes when I talk about it, it just sounds so crazy, but it didn’t kill me when I was there.
I did 60 seconds. My friend had done it. I did it. And so then we did another 60 seconds. We had…like there’s an interval. It’s an interval training [inaudible 00:17:56] for 60 seconds and then I think was 90 seconds of walking, and then 60 seconds of jogging, and you do that a few times. And that was very joyful. Of course quickly then I came to the end of the ravine and then there was the decision of, am I gonna run in public? And it actually took me a couple of days. And by days, I mean, I was only doing this exercise plan three days a week, so actually almost two weeks to finally get out of the ravine. But I just would run back and forth back and forth. It’s just a little street. It’s very…maybe not even a quarter of a mile down in this ravine. So there was joy.
And I also had the memory of when I was much younger, I had run very hard, but after that, there were bits of what you might call runner’s high and I remembered that. And so those memories came back and I kept thinking, if I do this enough, something will shift. I just need to trust [inaudible 00:18:57]. And I kept seeing my friend be all ecstatic about her exercise regimen and I knew other people…I mean, I had people tell me for many, many years…so a friend of mine has fibromyalgia and she’s the first one that ever said to me, “You need to break a sweat. Even if you’re just walking fast, you have to break a sweat,” and that will somehow transform some of the depression. And she was right and I did not wanna hear that. So once I started to experience that, that brought me joy.
And then the other thing that brought me joy was after a very short period of time, other people started to notice a little bit of a change, people really close to me. One of my really good friends, Krista, asked me, “Are you exercising?” You know, I wasn’t sweating enough to have to change clothes before we went for coffee. I was just, you know…and so I was still in my, like, bell bottom like or pants or something. But you know, I went into a Panera kind of with a sweatshirt on sometimes and she’s like, “Are you exercising?” And she had noticed that I was just a little lighter. My mood was lighter. And then my sister, my sister who I’m very close with, also noticed too.
So there were lots of bits of joy in the middle of this fear that people were going to laugh at me, that I was going to permanently injure myself, that I was going to have a heart attack, that I was gonna have a panic attack. I mean that’s kind of the thread that was constantly running. But within that, and I think that’s the benefit of meditation, is you realize that it’s never all or nothing. There’s very little black and white. It’s always these threads of gray. And so I could see or feel within the fear these little bits of joy and the joy kept growing as the fear subsided.
Interviewer: That’s a bit of a theme in this podcast season that others have voiced as well, that freedom and joy grow as fear subsides. Yeah, I hear three…what you just said was just packed full of life lessons, it seems to me but three of them stood out for me, one, trusting, believing in the vision. You at one point had experienced that runner’s high and trusting that there was that joy at the end of your journey, and also surrounding yourself with others who encourage you. And then the third thing I heard was setting interim goals that were achievable. And it seems like those are lessons that are not just about running, that’s about life. So thank you for that.
Nita, you’re largely… I’m changing topics a bit here. Your book was not about your father, but you did mention that your largely absentee father died in 1996. And that you spent time with him after his diagnosis of terminal cancer. And by the time he died, your relationship felt resolved, and you write that you had no regrets. That really hit me. I mean, I think not feeling regret after the death of a loved one is so important for all of us.
And in my new book, “Love is Complicated: A Story of Healing,” I share my own journey of moving from a fractured relationship with my father, and in my case, also with my Mennonite Church, to a place of reconciliation. Can you please share with our listeners some of the most important things you and your father did to resolve the problematic issues in your relationship before his death?
Nita: We didn’t talk about it. Are you there?
Interviewer: Yes, I am, yes.
Nita: Sorry. Yes, we played golf. I had an incredible opportunity and it’s not something that I would have seen as an opportunity. But six months before he was diagnosed and told he would die, I had a major depressive episode and wound up in the psychiatric hospital, and was no longer able to practice law. I had been a partner in a small law firm, and my ability to focus was completely gone. It’s still…actually it’s not great. And it was almost…you know, it’s one of those things where things just snapped and the springs just wouldn’t go back together. But what that meant was, instead of me driving all over the state of Ohio working all kinds of hours, because that was so important and you know, I needed to work so hard and needed the money and all that stuff, I had time on my hands, to be with him.
And so when he…he and my mother lived in Arizona when he was diagnosed, but they still had a farm in Lincoln County, Ohio. And so they came home, and I think it was late April or early May, and he said that what he wanted to do more than anything else was play golf. Well, I was a horrible golfer. I had played some because when you’re a lawyer, you play golf. That’s what we did. And so we played golf at least once a week, sometimes more in these…we call them goat pastures, just crappy little golf courses in Lincoln County, rural Ohio. And we were just right around and we played 12 holes sometimes, and then once he got…you know, when he continued to decline we played nine.
I think we started walking and then eventually we got to a riding cart. And we would just be together. And we’d talk about our family. And we’d talk about things I remember growing up about… I’m a lot younger than my brother and sister and so by the time they were gone, I was old enough to help around the farm. And so we talked about that, about, you know, building fence, and herding cattle, and things like that we had done. But all of that was long gone by the time this all happened. They moved away, and they still had the farm but, you know, it wasn’t active.
And then every once in a while, he would say something like, “You know, I really don’t want a tombstone, but I need a new set of golf clubs.” And so we bought a new set of golf clubs, and we never did get him a tombstone until after my mother died. He was actually in the same niche with her, but he never had a tombstone. And then he would say things like, “You know, I don’t really know what happens after this.” He was a Catholic and pretty devout, but he would just say it and I wouldn’t ask him any questions. That was never our relationship. But he would just say something.
But mostly we just laughed about things that… You know, one day a groundhog stole his ball on the golf course and I thought we were gonna die laughing. I mean, he nearly fell out of the car he was laughing so hard. Things like that. And we just were together. And then eventually, they went back to Arizona, and he really, really wanted to go to Yellowstone and the Grand Tetons and so I flew out, and we did that. And then he went to a cancer treatment center for a little while and I went out there with him. And then he and my mom came back to Ohio and lived with Ed and I. And they lived with us from sometime in either…I think it was early November until January when he died. He ended up dying in a hospice house, but a hospice, Kobacker Center here in town. But they were with us so I was with him all that time.
And when he was at our house and there were just opportunities to like trim his nails, which it was the most intimate thing to trim someone’s nails, especially your father. It was just…you know, things like that. And the fact that we knew that our time was limited… So yeah, that’s what we did. And you know, it wasn’t complicated and it wasn’t… The wounds you know, that I had as…from childhood, we didn’t talk about those really directly. We closed them by being together.
Interviewer: That is so precious. That’s beautiful. We also didn’t talk about it. It’s really not all that dissimilar. For my father and me, it was a gradual recognition that we’re all broken, we’re all imperfect in some way or another. And I think our healing really arose from that vulnerable place of not being perfect. And you and your father sharing such basic and intimate humanity, it doesn’t sound all that dissimilar. That’s beautiful.
Nita: It sounds very similar. Yeah, that sounds very similar. I like what you said about the brokenness too because he… Again, we never said those words, but I could just feel him being himself and there not being any pretense. For us, it was more of a distance. It was just this distance, this space. And we closed that gap.
Interviewer: That’s beautiful. Now, we also didn’t talk about the brokenness. This is, in retrospect, me understanding that we did in some way finally understand that neither one of us was perfect and that there’s brokenness everywhere. And it’s as vulnerable as clipping someone’s toenails, you know. That’s the place. That’s the place.
Nita: Yes.
Interviewer: So 10 years after your dad’s death, you wrote a memoir about his final year. Did you ever publish it?
Nita: I sure tried. I had taken it through several editing classes, and then also took it through graduate school. But I realize now that it really wasn’t ready. I just didn’t really know what the story was. I couldn’t have articulated what I just talked to you about in the same way. And so I’m kind of glad it didn’t get published. Sometimes I thought about even self-publishing it. But the fact that I had trouble trying to get it published was part of the difficulty I was having when I took up running because I was very depressed. I’d gotten some rejections from agents and I was very depressed about having those rejections.
And so I, you know, just thought, “Oh, I’m not really a writer. I’m not doing anything.” And I was very depressed too. So no, but I do hope…it’s one of those things that I hope to resurrect at some point. Having written “Depression Hates a Moving Target,” I know a lot more now about the writing process, and I feel a little more comfortable thinking that maybe I know the story now, too.
Interviewer: You were saying “I’m not really a writer” leads me to a question I actually wanted to ask you. In your book, you write about the difference between receiving external accolades and compliments and owning them, making the medals your own. Many of us share that kind of imposter syndrome. Can you share with our listeners the process by which you eventually began to let in the fact that you are good, you are a runner, you are a writer, you are a winner?
Nita: Thank you, that is a great question. And that is a day by day thing that I still have some challenges with sometimes. The thing I do with the book is I pick it up every day and look at it. So it’s actually on the mantel, in our living room. And there’s a copy that I carry with me all the time. And whenever I feel any doubt, I just pull the book out and say, “Okay, that’s your name right there on the cover, right there.” It has to be physical like that.
But I still have these doubts that…you know, it’s not actually that uncommon, but I think mine is just a little more extreme. If I don’t run for two or three days, my brain will say, “Well Nita, that was fun. You had a really good time. You know, it’s over now. You can grieve, but it was fun.” Like, I’m never gonna run again. I mean, it’s quite ridiculous. So I’ll say now what I know how to do, and this comes from meditation, is I say, “Thank you. I appreciate that you’re trying to protect me. Now I’m gonna go put on my running shoes and just go run a couple of miles. So hang tight, and let’s see what happens.”
Interviewer: That’s great.
Nita: And then that [crosstalk 00:32:31].
Interviewer: That’s great. And it is a day by day process. I was really struck by something you wrote relative to that. You said, “The peak experience of running the marathon was not what was life-altering. What changes your life is the day to day stuff leading up to those events, showing up over and over.” It seems like what we long for, many of us, are the peak experiences that will launch us into a new way of living, whatever that means for us. Showing up day after day feels more like drudgery. Can you comment on that?
Nita: Yeah, I know that didn’t sound very positive, but that’s really what it is. Because I think if I had to convince myself that there would always be another peak experience, that there would always be something bright and shiny in the future, that would be one of those denial places where… Because we just don’t know…always know that. So my attempt is to fall in love with the process of what I’m doing, whether it’s running this particular mile, having this conversation with you, writing a particular passage, those kinds of things. [crosstalk 00:34:00]
Interviewer: Falling in love with a process, yeah.
Nita: Yeah, fall in love with the process and sink into the process. In Vipassana they talk a lot about mindfulness. They talk about sinking into an experience. So you might notice the, you know, tightness in your chest if you’re nervous, and syncing your attention, your awareness into that sensation. So if I can do that, while I’m running, to be fully present with whatever mile I’m running in… While I’m writing, this morning, I wrote a pitch to a journalist who wants a source for an article she’s writing, so I tried to be completely present with that pitch I was writing, regardless of whether it will make it into the magazine or not.
Same thing with…I’m working on a book proposal for a possible second book and the same thing with that, not knowing the outcome of that, not knowing whether I’m gonna get that charge of, “Yes, we wanna do this,” from the publisher. But just being in the process of doing the research and writing the proposal and, you know, editing it, things like that. It’s very much like meditation in that you just bring yourself back. Very gently bring yourself back, bring yourself back.
Interviewer: Absolutely. And showing up over and over again really relates to the writing process that I think you studied with Natalie Goldberg. So Natalie is probably best known as the author of “Writing Down the Bones.” And your experience with Natalie, I think heightened for you the parallels between writing and managing chronic depression, about that showing up piece, just show up. Can you say more about the process that you went through in Natalie’s workshops?
Nita: Well, she is a Zen practitioner, a Zen priest. And her training is in these 10-day silent retreats, where you just come back to either your breath, or your experience again, and again and again. And so she applied that to writing. And in the workshops which the ones I took were in Taos, New Mexico at Mabel Dodge Luhan House, we would sit and we would walk, and we would write, and we would read aloud. And there was no comment, no feedback. It was just the process of sitting, walking, writing, reading.
And so after a few days of that, you just got used to doing it without really thinking about it or worrying about it, or you know, judging yourself. And it made it a lot easier to do that in the rest of my life. It wasn’t as easy as being there because you had the structure of the workshop. But I know that that influences everything I do now, especially with writing. Whenever anybody asks me about writing, it’s really hard for me to talk about anything, except for the practice that I learned from Natalie, because it’s the foundation of everything I write.
It may end up being heavily edited. I may end up using all kinds of other techniques and, you know, craft skills that I didn’t necessarily learn from Natalie, but the foundation is just starting again and again and again. And as someone with chronic depression, that’s essential, because if it were up to me, I would just stay in bed, quite frankly.
Interviewer: And as you know, we share that. I’ve also experienced a workshop, just went to one in Taos, but I did go to France one year. Unfortunately, she was not there. She was ill and someone else took her place during that one-week silent writing workshop in France. But yeah, her golden rule is “Continue under all circumstances. Don’t be tossed away.”
Another thing we share Nita, as you know, my new book will be released by Mango Publishing next summer, and it’s the same publisher that released your memoir. Mango is now the fastest-growing indie publisher in the U.S. How was it working with them?
Nita: It’s been phenomenal. I have nothing else to compare it to except other people’s stories. And I worked with an editor, I still am working with the editor, Brenda Knight, and she’s almost like a fairy godmother in some ways because she just sort of will pop in with just exactly what you need at the right time. And it’s been really, really amazing. I mean, they have been so supportive. When I first sent the proposal over, she took a look at it and said, “Here is a weak place. Is that something you can work on?” And she gave me some time to do that. I mean, I’d never heard of anybody else that does that, any other publisher. And maybe not even other…well, Mango, I’m not sure.
But she was just so kind of on my team from the beginning. And she actually once said to me, “Nita, you’re the kind of person that looks for things to worry about,” which I am. And she also said, “Remember, we’ve got your back. We want you to succeed.” And I have felt that. In the weeks, really in the months leading up to the launch, my launch was on May 15th, there was a bit of radio silence where they were all, by they, I mean, the Mango people, were all designing the book and you know, doing the cover and everything that they needed to do to make it launch.
And then about two weeks before the launch, it almost felt…I wish I could think of the movie where there’s like this barren landscape, and then all of a sudden the ground starts to ripple like a giant machine…machine isn’t the right word, but this giant being, comes up out of the ground, and just propels you forward.
Interviewer: That’s lovely.
Nita: And that’s what it felt like. Now I was part of that because I was feeding them blog posts and articles. And you know, I was doing my part of the marketing too. But once I got hooked into that system, there’s just like a timing thing where it’s like, okay, it’s Nita’s turn. And they turned it on and it just sort of propelled things forward. And I just felt so cared for. I mean, I don’t know how else to say it. Like they really, really want me to succeed. It’s not a minor thing with them at all. And as you said, they’re the fastest-growing indie publisher because they see that they have a great niche. I mean, they’re kind of self-help, inspirational, some memoir, but always with this positive spin. People are looking for that. People are hungry for that right now.
And I don’t know if Chris saw that or who saw that, but they…you know, maybe he and Brenda got it, I’m not sure who…I don’t know how they originated. But they have found a niche that people really, really want. So I just feel so grateful that I found them at the right time. I was ready for them. They were ready for me. The book was ready. It had happened. And so it was kind of a kismet that it all just kind of came together. So I’m really excited that you’re gonna be working with Mango because I think you’ll really, really enjoy it. I mean, it’s a hard work, it’s a ton of work, especially in marketing, but you know, that’s what we do.
Interviewer: That’s right. I think I read on your website that in 2018, you submitted the manuscript to 108 agents and 132 publishers, and really received only very mild interest until Mango picked it up. Of course, this is not an unusual scenario. In fact, most stories like this don’t end as successfully as yours or mine. What’s your advice to writers wishing to publish their work and receiving rejection, after rejection, after rejection?
Nita: Have somebody you can cry with, be angry with, yell with, throw things with. You know, go for a run and then just go back and send it out again. I mean, that’s the thing. It’s like on to the next, on to the next, on to the next. I read this book by Brenda Ueland, called “If You Want to Write” I read it years ago, but I remember her talking about stories, she was talking mostly about short stories, but she said, you know, essentially if you don’t get the outcome you want, just go on to the next. And sometimes that’s a different story and sometimes it’s a different agent or a different publisher. For me, there was the option of self-publishing, I mean, I knew that was an option. And it’s definitely an option for anybody. I had that in my sights too.
So I think it’s a balance, because I’m really, really glad that I wasn’t tenacious enough with the book about my dad to self-publish it because I think there will come a day when I will get it published either by a publisher or I’ll self-publish it, where it’ll be a much better book. And I knew in my gut that that’s part of what was going on. But with this book, I felt that it was a much better book than the book about my father, that it just needed someone who could see the dream, could see the vision. And Brenda and Mango saw that. It’s like dating, you have to find the right…you know, it’s like, you’re just trying to find the right match. And you don’t need a hundred people in your corner, you just need one. You know, you don’t need all the publishers, you just need one.
The other thing is that to realize that there’s hundreds of publishers out there. Who knew? You always hear about the 5, 6, 10 maybe most common ones, but there’s hundreds of publishers. And also contests. I had the earlier manuscript of “Depression Hates a Moving Target,” it was called 26 Point Freaking 2, and that was a finalist in the Faulkner Award and you know, that led me to meet a whole bunch of different people and was one of the things that helped Mango decide to publish too. So don’t overlook the contests either. [crosstalk 00:44:59]
Interviewer: Yeah, that’s great advice.
Nita: You know and by don’t give up I don’t necessarily mean don’t give up on the projects you’re working on, it might be time to move to something different, but if you really wanna write, you know, learn the craft and work. And don’t be deterred by the naysayers unless you know that they’re on point. You know, if they actually have something that’s correct, listen to them and make the changes. But don’t let somebody say to you, “Oh, writing is too hard. You shouldn’t do that.”
Interviewer: Wise words. Thank you. So you began your running journey in 2010. It’s nearly 10 years later. What, if anything, would you do differently if you were to repeat the past 10 years?
Nita: That’s a really good question. You know, I can’t really think of anything. I might have joined the running group earlier, but I think I joined it exactly when I was ready. I think it might have been too intimidating before then. And then recently, I’ve had to kind of back off of some of my running plans because the book tour and the book marketing has been just the main thing in my life. But I can’t say that there’s really anything. I mean, I wish I had made a more concrete meditation of the running earlier maybe I would have done you know, more of a practice with that. But even with that, I think I did that. So that question kind of stumped me I guess. I can’t really think of what I would do differently.
Interviewer: I love that answer actually. To me, what I’m hearing is the importance of having faith in a vision of the future but also being at peace in looking back to the past that everything happened as it was supposed to happen. And I think that mindfulness requires both. In order to be fully present in the moment, don’t we have to have some sense of peace about whatever happened is because it was supposed to happen, and a faith in the future so that we can sit squarely in the moment and be present. So I rather like your answer.
Nita: Well, thank you. Thank you. I think that writing the book about it helped me process any second-guessing I might have had because I was able to see by writing the book, how this had to happen, for that to happen, for that to happen. And so there was kind of a series of events that if I hadn’t written about it so extensively, I might not have been able to see. So that may be why I have a little more clarity about it. And you know, we call it equanimity but that sense of just being open to it exactly as it is.
I mean, there’s days when I wish I had run, you know, another marathon or a different marathon, or there’s days when I think, “Oh, I should have tried these shoes,” or little things like that. But overall, especially finding the running community and feeling at fellowship with them, that’s just been such a gift that I just don’t second guess that at all.
Interviewer: That’s great. Okay, so Nita, if there were one last thing that you’d like our listeners to hear, I’ll put the details about how to purchase your book on my show notes, but other than that, if there were one last thing you want them to hear what would it be?
Nita: I love hearing about tiny goals. So I would suggest if you wanna do something, especially if it’s something that seems so big or maybe terrifying, pick a tiny, tiny goal, a goal so small that you can’t fail and start there. But just start. I get overwhelmed very easily partly because I’m depressed, and so some days I just have to say to myself, just pick up your pen, or just open the folder the file’s in, or just put on your shoes, just put on your shoes, and then go outside.
Interviewer: Thank you. Nita, this has been great. Unfortunately, we’re out of time and must end the conversation. I’ve been speaking with Nita Sweeney, author of “Depression Hates a Moving Target: How Running With My Dog Brought Me Back From the Brink.” Details about how to contact Nita and purchase the book can be found on the show notes. It’s been a pleasure, Nita. Thanks for taking the time to speak with me.
Nita: Thank you so much for having me on the podcast. This has been fantastic. Thank you.
Interviewer: And thank you our listeners for joining us today. We are together on this journey.
Today Marlena is in a tailspin, overwhelmed, and feeling out of control. Based on this week’s podcast with her guest Nita Sweeney she recommends and is trying out gratitude, humor and relinquishing control.
What is it you do when your life feels out of control?